Pieceworkers

McDusty

I'm not sure how this switched to a thread about unions, but i'll jump in anyway with my .02.

Mining giant, Tek Cominco, pretty much runs my part of the world. Even the local ski hill is under a union thumb. They are forced to pay insane wages to lifty ski bums, they must re-hire them the next season, even if they sucked, with a wage increase. I was a 'lifty' back in the day, and minimum wage was more than fair for such a job. The ski hill can only get rid of the union if they close down for 2 years and re-open. It might come to that. If that's what it takes for the privately owned ski hill to get rid of their insanely overpriced labor force, then so be it. One of the hangers that worked for our DC quit and went to work at Tek so he would have job security.

anyway, that was a bit of a rant about nothing at all.

Unions - keeping underqualified & ambitionless people overpaid. they were a good idea at their grassroots level, but as with most things, as they gain power, they loose focus.

d-rock

lol i realize some of you know NOTHING about construction unions. Cap'n, you call me a socialist, i take it personally. (sorry charlie, you asked for it). In our union, if you don't produce, you don't earn. the cream rises to the top. but you wouldn't understand that. As you've clearly demonstrated in many of your previous posts here, and on other forums you are uninformed and uneducated about many things that are not drywall. Trying to discuss these issues with you, in particular, is like giving money to a cat. Ask yourself how much you've earned in your best years, then TELL yourself that union men earned more because that's the truth, and they did it working a 35 hr week with reasonable overtime.
Finally, do not call me a socialist, because in fact you probably have no idea what a socialist really is. Seems you have a giant chip on your shoulder that needs some fine tuning.
Most of the men in our union are capitalists and conservatives. Talented workers grouping together to negotiate with their employer for better wages and benefits is capitalism. Shall I put together a reading list for you ? Also,please lay off NYC, it's the capital of the world, and though it may be liberal as sin, all people and all religions are welcomed here. Great place to grow up.

d-rock

have you ever been in the carpenter's union ? i'm guessing not. This post makes you sound like the Cap'n....ignorant.

McDusty

meh, just speaking from personal experience. ignorance is bliss.

evolve991

I believe in workers with a talent banding together and coming to an agreement with suits to be treated and paid better. I just don't believe in paying a tithe so 'da Boss' can live large and skim almost as much as the workers themselves thereby bleeding the company dry while not really helping the workers much at all. Not that all unions are like that. But whatever union I was in when I worked at Peach Bottom for Crinkel n DeStroy did little more than collect dues every week.If the union works as D-Rock is explaining I consider that to be the democratic way and worthy of efforts to uphold.

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Rockin' the suburbs since 9.9.1991 Shue Drywall .....Marylands Modern Rock Alternative....

Capt-sheetrock

You can call me ignorant all you want comrade. I am not the sharpest knife in the draw, but i do have a dictionary. Words mean things. You can not be a capitalist and a socialist at the same time, its a contradiction in terms (like government intelligence)

You keep making the point that "unions" make mo money than scabs. I have not dissagreed with that point, in fact I believe I stated that "unions are an attempt at increaseing production, by strangling the chicken"

Perhaps you, being so much mo brilliant than me, can explain to me how a capitialist can be a uionist also??? (since you seem to be offended by the term socialist).

I lived in Long Island for four years, so I have every right to think that NYC sucks, I have been there !!! Had a cousin killed in NYC, by a union guy, for bidding the job. Call me a racist, but he was a union guy and he was found guilty. But then again, words don't mean anything to you

Darren@Partners

Cap'n, so sorry about your brother. You are so correct on Drock. While he may be doing quite well in the union and think himself a conservative, facts are facts. There is indeed a small slice of the Socialist crowd that actually me be considered capalists though... George Soros comes to mind

A vital function of their proletariat class is to offer up an example of how Socialism works and can work for you too! So in that respect, maybe we give this to drock and smile smuggly. This microcosm does not prove his point but rather ours. I do believe one could be a Socialist and an (unhappy) conservative at the same time, but not a capitalist. The two are, as you say, diametrically opposed. If that is not apparent, further explanation won't convince anyone.

The same goes for the argument that Socialism has never worked anywhere for any real length of time. The Socialist system ALWAYS collapses upon itself. leaving a legacy of tyranny, death squads, national economic destruction, and civil strife(war). It is billed to the poor masses as an improvement and to the middle class as a duty to our less fortunate. They practiced all other methods of takeover, by civil war and military coup, and are now using the "boiling frog" method. Slowly, over fifty plus years, they have added one tenet at a time to your daily life and we begrudgingly accept each new insult. Now almost every piece is in place and our liberty and freedom is pretty much gone.

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www.partnersconstruction-drywall.com

big george

Here in canada we like are trade,never talk about capitalist,socialism,conservatism and all them other words.

Capt-sheetrock

Thanks for this post. I agree with you, and I also KNOW that it is really fruitless to debate the topic with those that hold a differant view. It is a topic that generates alot of feelings. As an american, I believe that all of us are intitled to our own views, and the right to speak about them.

I do find it really tough to just sit by and never say anything, when I hear folks proposeing things, that as you said, have never ever worked anywhere in the world before. Why destroy the best market ever created.

Anyhoo,,,, I'm done ranting about this. I will endevor to behave myself !!

MeatBallDryWall

IMO it takes a stronger minded person to work for themselves than a big union CO. Anyone can grab a pan & knife & piddle all day for a check. Get out there & hustle up work, stay busy & make a living without the backing of a big Corp & then make your brags. It's a hustling man's game & a tough one @ that.

Socialism BTW.

d-rock

So the people that wake up every day and go to work have weaker minds than you ? Lawyers and doctors get up everyday and work for large corporations, great carpenters, and great tapers. You have your own business, probably work 60 hrs per week and always sweat the next gig...You probably barely break 100k. Union men bust their hump for 35 hrs a week,7 hrs a day, full benefits with the best and safest working conditions, and they make 100k..In union construction, a laborer that pushes a broom and shovel owns a home, a great car, a boat, and puts his kids through college. Without all your headaches.
If the customer is paying top dollar, why shouldn't the contractor/ owner pay top dollar. Get it ?
CAptain and Darren, that's called SUPPLY SIDE ECONOMICS. Maybe you guys heard of it, it's champion was a union member ...Ronald Reagan.

d-rock

By the way guys, don't take any of this personally, I do enjoy debating with all of you.

Darren@Partners

Drock, sure RR was in the SAG, but do you really consider that a trade union? I do enjoy debating you as well. But I stand on my previous posts. And the whole geographical cost of living thing, did you somehow forget that part? My stoogies are $4, yours are $10. In NY, your cost of living is crazy high, what like $300-500 a month just to park a car? Those 100k incomes is also why your cribs cost a million apiece too. I looked up real estate in NY burbs: my 2400 sq ft house with a barn cost under 140k, the same in NY, no barn about $675k or so. So if I make 80-100k, I live a wee bit better than your broom pusher. It's called wage price spiral, a term last used during Carters administration. Pay stupid high wages, you get stupid high prices. Then it turns into a contest of who can raise it faster. The workers are amazed at their good fortune of such a high wage, until they realize hamburger costs what Tbones did last year.

I still say a union guy can't really call himself a true capitalist. I'll argue that to my deathbed. Unions are truly the first step to Marxist Socialism. This country took that step 80 odd years ago, look where we are now. This Socialized healthcare bullsheet may be the beginning of the end of Socialism here and good frigging riddance.

Once you tell the rank and file that worker A, B, C, D are all of exactl the same value, regardless of output, the initiative is DESTROYED forever. Once you begin redistributing wealth, those with the ability to generate greater wealth will go to ground. They either hide the assets better or they will simply create much less.

You know the best part of being an independent? Not having some grease ball shake you down for the kickback, up front, under the table, or straight off the check in the form of union dues. And all union members can blow the Cadillac plan exemption straight out their arse. Your union dues went straight into Obamas pocket. Proud of that?

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www.partnersconstruction-drywall.com

Darren@Partners

And, for the record, supply side econ? It works. ask Bill Clinton. His adminstration was the true benefactor of Ronnie's unpopular fiscal polcy. Nobody was listening when he told us it would take time. The budget surpluses of the Clinton era were a direct result of the Rs carrying on the supply side economics (and welfare reform). Hell even Kennedy believed in tax cuts. But they didn't pass them until he was dead. And they worked. That is an undebateable fact.

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www.partnersconstruction-drywall.com

d-rock

i agree with this statement 100%.
The other stuff we will rebut later.

FOR THOSE ABOUT

Sorry D, but that almost sounds like a working vacation to me?! If I worked 7 hours a day and was only allowed to put up X (say 30) sheets a day I would be embarrassed. How does that work out for you when you are doing work outside of your weekly gig...or do you...

DSJOHN

Unions,let me just say this,,,uh no forget it!!! DSJOHN

Capt-sheetrock

A walking contradiction. How, pray tell, can you agree with that staement 100% and be a union guy???

I forgot, your a capitalist AND a socialist

MeatBallDryWall

If anyone has a weaker mind than myself they must be bad off. What I will say is I bet I can run circles around you hanginf/finishing or whatever because I am used to busting (_I_) & not pushing a broom all day.

d-rock

You obviously need to back up and read what the post says. The first sentence of your statement says it all. As far as you running circles, you need to settle down my friend, this is not about who has a larger member, but rather, working conditions and political ideas. For the record I've seen union carpenters and tapers hang and finish insane amounts of rock.