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Finishing Butt Joints

68K views 196 replies 32 participants last post by  moore 
#1 ·
Have had different ways shown to me but what is the best way to finish Butt Joints in the most effiecient way? Do you just go over twice w/ a 12" bowed trowel or make a mud path on both sides of the tape one your first coat and then a mud path over the tape itslef on your second coat then what?
 
#73 ·
The Butt Taper site lists these as its advantages. Any thoughts?:

Utilizing the ButtTaper system with the backer board in between the studs has the following advantages over the current conventional method of 2-1/16" tape over a butt joint on a wooden or steel stud:

  • The backer board contains only 4 to 5% moisture while a wooden stud/joist contains 18 to 19%. Practically, no wood shrinkage to damage the butt joint.
  • Since the butt joint is off the stud/joist, it is not subjected to any direct forces.
  • The drywall is bonded to a minimum 4" backer board; a greater area of the drywall is bonded than on the 1-1/2" wooden stud/joist rendering a stronger installation as tested by the National Association of Home Builders at their Research Center. The ButtTaper system can withstand about 3,000 pounds more force in compression and 400 pounds more in tension than the traditional method on a stud. Please read the complete NAHB Test Report on this website.
  • The butt joint boards have a clean undamaged edge. The edge has not been weakened by screws or nails allowing for a stronger more secure installation. The end paper is tapered down and is not loose; no need to cut a ‘V’ edge notch in the butt joint to prevent ridging.
  • The butt boards are secured on a flat plane.
  • Setting compounds can be economically used on all three finishing coats rendering a faster finishing process. Setting compounds such as Easy-Sand and DuraBond are not affected by humidity and moisture, one of the principal causes of drywall failure, and offer a stronger bond than joint compounds.
  • Tremendous savings in labor and material. The creation of the tapered edge and the finishing process requires less than 2 minutes with very little compound. Faster for the sheetrockers; 2" on each side to properly screw the butt boards.
  • No callbacks, and gains a competitive edge with a superior monolithic drywall finish resulting in a far superior appearance of the project; no crown or chair molding curvature. Window, door and base board casing is straight.
  • Eliminates any butt joint debates with your customers, general contractors and painters. A more aesthetic drywall finish sure to please yourself and everyone else.
  • Allows for the usage of glossy paints without the fear of shadowing and eliminates the necessity for texturing.
 
#75 ·
Personally I have heard more complaints from contractors how some tapers leave the lower inside angle not allowing their base to lay flat..[/QUOTE]


this is a big nuisance. it takes a lot less time to wipe the corner tight at the bottom than it does to scrape it all out when installing base. it's not the horizontal flareout from tape and mud, its the taper being lazy and not giving the bottom the extra pressure it needs to stop it from being a bell bottom corner. the corner is almost a 1/4" out of plumb over 4" sometimes. total PITA in my opinion.
 
#76 ·
I don't get the rock splicer thing,whats the difference from using plywood strips,u bar,steal stud,a side ways 2x4 etc......we just call it a floater or a backer,and they don't work so well on insulated walls neither,they tend to push out from the pressure of the insulation.
so whats the difference from a piece of wood,and one that cost 6 dollars at that.looks like a piece of wood to me ??????
someone plz explain difference :eek:
 
#77 ·
Here are the differences I see...
The Rocksplicer has raised ends, forcing the sheetrock to actually cup at the joint, creating a hollow. This could certainly be achieved with plywood, but you'd have to staple 1/8-14" shim material at the edges (which equals more labor). A steel stud with ribs at the edges could work, but the ridge would have to be pretty proud to work. Any true wood material would have the same old shrinkage issues, with potential screw pops. I see your point about insulated walls though.... i think the rocksplicer was about $4...spendy, but if it can save on floating labor and materials (I know...negligible, but at $8-$9 a box it might be cost effective if you include the labor).
I would find a way to justify the cost on a job that required that walls be flat, and not just a bunch of smooth lumps;):jester::yes:
 
#81 ·
Just Me,,, the Butt Taper is a huge POS. a lot of drywallers on another forum beat this thing to death for about 3 months[the owner /inventor ] of the tool was on that site. The guy has absolutely no clue about sheetrock[serious] . One of his comments "if you dont use the BT you,re a hacker,,,,according to him there are an awful lot of hackers? I use the Rocksplicers occasionally ,not on every job-- and alls I can say is try them,you wont be disappointed . I know in todays market things are tight so adding expense doesnt seem right, but you will see an advantage. 2Buck, I dont need them because I cant finish a butt joint, it makes the job quicker thus no money lost and a great job. They will not work in certain applications, thus I finish the normal or conventional way.
 
#82 ·
Just Me,,, the Butt Taper is a huge POS. a lot of drywallers on another forum beat this thing to death for about 3 months[the owner /inventor ] of the tool was on that site. The guy has absolutely no clue about sheetrock[serious] . One of his comments "if you dont use the BT you,re a hacker,,,,according to him there are an awful lot of hackers? I use the Rocksplicers occasionally ,not on every job-- and alls I can say is try them,you wont be disappointed . I know in todays market things are tight so adding expense doesnt seem right, but you will see an advantage.
Thanks, DS. I did some more thinking on the Butt Taper, as compared to your recommended Rock Splicers. Right now, I'd have to agree with you. The Rock Splicers seem to make the most sense of what I've come across so far.
 
#83 · (Edited)
Not for nothing, but doesn't it seem like the manufacturers could offer boards that are tapered on all sides for a very small mark up? Similar to making 54" board, there would be plenty of circumstances where it would well be worth it to spend an extra buck a board if it is that important right? This would remove the need for "butt tapers" & things like that all together wouldn't it?
________
Park Royal 2 Condo Pattaya
 
#84 ·
:thumbsup:
Not for nothing, but doesn't it seem like the manufacturers could offer boards that are tapered on all sides for a very small mark up? Similar to making 54" board, there would be plenty of circumstances where it would well be worth it to spend an extra buck a board if it is that important right? This would remove the need for "butt tapers" & things like that all together wouldn't it?
Agreed
 
#87 · (Edited)
Thanks for that, Slim. From what I read, tapered 4 sides should be possible, without having to resort to doing 1 sheet at a time. And especially with today's computer operated systems.

But if they did have to slow down or limit production to make it, it could still be a good direction for someone willing to take the initiative, and maybe gear a production line for it. Maybe even build a mini production plant for it, if they couldn't justify a large one.

It reminds me of the steel mills, when most all used to think that large was what was needed to make any real money. But the recovery of just the costs of those mills, before profitability, took a long time, so not many were too interested in firing a new one up.
Then along came the mini steel mills, that focused on running just particular items. They were able to be profitable in a much shorter time.

------

But maybe manufactured tapered butt ends wouldn't be so good for drywall finishers. They wouldn't be needed so much.
 
#88 ·
they will never ever put a bevell in a butt,it makes no sense to,think about it.
1. on long walls/ceilings how often do they stay on center.
2. in a house,how many butt joints are there in a 10,000 sq house,10,20,then you make dw cost more!!! cheaper to do with mud in this case ,(2 boxes of mud)
3. more thinking for the dry waller (a no no)example "do I give him a bevell in the angle or the butt.(more teaching)
4.so now,at the end of a angle on a wall,the top sheet may have a bevell in it,but the sheet below will not.(pain in the butt) no pun intended
5.most manufacturers of DW keep the making of the bevell a trade secret.(wont show that on film)
here's something for you to ponder on justme,a tool that cuts/scores back side of sheet 3/4" in,then it also rips a 3/16 depth from it,now the end of the sheet is around 3/8 " thick,and it will sit recessed in on a stud.I use to do this with a utility knife,SOMETIMES if a stud was warped ,but it's time consuming,who knows,maybe there's some type of router bit that already does this,but if not,get inventing justme,this way,it's up to the tradesman when he wants to recess the butt......
I want 50% of the profits too:whistling2:
 
#90 ·
here's something for you to ponder on justme,a tool that cuts/scores back side of sheet 3/4" in,then it also rips a 3/16 depth from it,now the end of the sheet is around 3/8 " thick,and it will sit recessed in on a stud.I use to do this with a utility knife,SOMETIMES if a stud was warped ,but it's time consuming,who knows,maybe there's some type of router bit that already does this,but if not,get inventing justme,this way,it's up to the tradesman when he wants to recess the butt......
I want 50% of the profits too:whistling2:
So backsides with no paper on such large areas, and at the end of sheets, is healthy for a finish job? I do have a lot to learn yet.

5% on router bits. After expenses.
 
#89 ·
From the Ole Goats corner.

If you want a truley recessed butt joint for a resonable price and in resonably timely manner.

Just carry a planer in your tool box. Take that planer, and plane the joist or stud where the butt is going. Presto, you have a recessed butt joint, no exspense and about 3 mins time.

Dern guys, this ain't rocket surgery ,,, ya know????:eek:
 
#113 ·
Wowsers:eek:!!! Why don't we go ahead and use a depth temper so that way its not finishing anymore but cluster****ing. I always use as small as a knife/trowel/tool as needed. I always thought it was tape, bedding and skimming and sometimes things need a extra coat or 4. This thread looks similar to the cub that plays with his bead too much.
 
#115 ·
Wowsers:eek:!!! Why don't we go ahead and use a depth temper so that way its not finishing anymore but cluster****ing. I always use as small as a knife/trowel/tool as needed. I always thought it was tape, bedding and skimming and sometimes things need a extra coat or 4. This thread looks similar to the cub that plays with his bead too much.
"As needed" being the key words. I prefer to not do any extra coats, and if that means using a wide blade (and the presence of mind to look for nasty stuff before I've gone full bore on finishing) then I'm okay with that.
 
#114 ·
I prefer to cut back paper on all butt joints when hanging. That way your not destroying blades on screws. Prefill with quickset when dry papertape. if butt is hollow run 12'' knife down middle next coat run 12'' knife down both sides last coat skim entire butt joint with 12'' knife. If butt is rocking run 12'' knife down both sides 1/2 way on paper tape. This recesses your papertape next coat 12'' knife over tape and 12''knife 1/2'' away from middle swipe. Last coat skim entire butt with 12'' knife. You end up with a 3' butt (if hollow when starting) or a 4' butt (if rocking when starting) I expect people to say that is too much work or overkill (heard it all before). The point is you find a way you like to run em and thats how you do it. I personally would never run a box on a butt or prefill a butt with any material and not tape it. But that may work great for someone else. One thing I've learned over the years is everyone has their own way of drywalling and everybodys way is the right way. I personally appreciate most of those guys in my area. I make alot of money every year fixing their way of drywalling.
 
#116 ·
butt joints are a bitch! i agree with woodcox. my way is very similar. a GOOD hanger helps alot , check studs/joists. but most hangers are not finishers. finishers are better hangers, but we can't do both when work is rolling. at least not for me. when h/o who hung there own rock call . [I'm too busy] they always glue the butts. makes matters much worse.crosstripe all butts/bead. downstripe all flats. no ripples .
 
#117 ·
butt joints are a bitch! i agree with woodcox. my way is very similar. a GOOD hanger helps alot , check studs/joists. but most hangers are not finishers. finishers are better hangers, but we can't do both when work is rolling. at least not for me. when h/o who hung there own rock call . [I'm too busy] they always glue the butts. makes matters much worse.crosstripe all butts/bead. downstripe all flats. no ripples .
Got to dissagree that finishers are better hangers.

Do you pay your hangers more if they check joints, figure rock and use the busted areas over window and door cuts?? Or do you expect them to spend twice the time and aggrivation for the same money??
 
#120 ·
As a hanger turned finisher I find, after the house is hung, that I can take a pan of 20 minute mud and fix in less than an hour, what would take a hanger another day to prevent.

So when I'm hanging my own work, one of my favorite sayings is "F the finishers, if they can't take a joke".

Are we really "cry-baby's" that can't fix anything??? Are we pro's if we can only finish "perfect" work...... Heck anybody can do that.
 
#127 ·
I like to run all flats then when done running all flats go back and the flats are allready set up run the butts on zero on each side then when your done all your buttjoints go back and fill everything with a trowel the same time you close all your flatt ends and it kinda leaves your butt joints fuller. but dont go wild and fill over your buttlines make your work look like a work of art with no heavy edges and no over flow...
 

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#128 ·
Nice work drywallking,we could work together,our work looks the same.those pics from Canuck land,I see the pro rock blue and yellow mud boxes.how do you find their other brands of mud,,, red,green etc....we have been using pro rock last 8 months or so,so kind of new to it.better than the cgc so far
 
#130 ·
I got the Pro Roc Yellow and green from the Usa I lived on the border in British Columbia and after christmas i scored a house by walking in and talking to the home owner and we made a deal on the house 14000 sqft drywall house and he said he had $13000 dollars and thats it.. I said ok cause i had nothing and the house was just down the street from my house.. I called WinRoc and they gave me a price of $5700 for board alone.. I called the local USA builders center and they gave me a price of $4500 US for all the board and 45 boxs of mudd and 4 bags of proroc 90 hott mudd for prefilling.. i ended up paying $5100 with exchange for everything. The only thing was my friend and i had to haul all the sheets in the freezing cold and snow in to the house.. my friend and i spent a day and a half hauling all the sheets in taking care of them like gold flipping the sheets white side out and on a wall so cutting would be very easy and clean... we high balled the house in 24 days including week end offs and made only $3500 each. but being in a crule and unforgiving trade we got it done and payed some bills... the american mudd sucks though too meny pin holes after boxing and the mud was brown when comming out of the flat box... but we made it happen ..
 

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#131 ·
Okay guys, get ready to pile on the old goat

2buck, before I'd go to the trouble to order more exspensive mud,,,, I'd just buy some chalk (like goes in a chalk box,,differant colors) and tint my own mud. That way you can get any color you want, for pennies.

Sometimes on a HO's house, I will buy kool-aid (5/dollar) and tint my point up mud,,, they love the fruity smell,,, works great in a house that you find offensive to your nose also.
 
#132 ·
2buck, before I'd go to the trouble to order more exspensive mud,,,, I'd just buy some chalk (like goes in a chalk box,,differant colors) and tint my own mud. That way you can get any color you want, for pennies.

Sometimes on a HO's house, I will buy kool-aid (5/dollar) and tint my point up mud,,, they love the fruity smell,,, works great in a house that you find offensive to your nose also.
LOL,,no no ,our mud boxes them selves, are like our money,their different colours.:yes:
but I do like your Kool-aid Idea,my labourer never brings a lunch,beer and tattoo's are more important to him,so if I tell him it's pudding ......:eek::thumbsup:
 
#134 ·
Mudder, I went crazy for a cpl years and got into EIFS stucco (I have since recovered), but I kept the 24" trowel. For instance, when somone takes out a wall and your left with that 3 1/2" gap in the ceiling, a 20 or 24 trowel will make it look like childs play.
 
#137 ·
On a typical butt
Top: Split it with the 8" box, go back and cover by hand.
Skim: Split it with the 10" box, go back and cover by hand.
Prep: Split it with the 12" box, go back and cover it by hand.

We generally do a light "brush down" sanding between coats as well.

And we wonder why we're always running out of hours! lol

btw: This is our typical lever 4 setup, with a tight skim coat over the whole thing (or roll on with a "final coat primer") to finish for a level 5
 
#138 ·
:eek: holy ,someone put this thread back on topic !!!!!!
Were the same as you except drop the 8 " box .
there is another box thread where everyone got into more detail on how they did their butts. (for those looking :yes:) .
 
#139 ·
I had a quickie wall I had to finish this last week,, Just using regular mud,, The heat and temp was perfect inside the home, so dry time along with other repairs was not a probelm,, was able to finish it out,, tape and coat ready for texture all in one day... Ran thin coat with 6 inch knive along the flats, wipe down with 8 inch knife,, turned around and coated both sides of the butt joints with the 6 , low side with 8inch, waited till the end of the day , coated everything with a ten,, either off set to low side, or down the center,,on the butts,,, next day sand touchup texture, All butt joints layed in flat, except for one that needed alittle more work, since this was a long wall over 25 ft, with window to the side of it, , I hit the bad butt diagonally, from high to low with a ten, only where the mud was needed. turned out great, less work , less sanding, and no joints showing ,,
 
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