How Many Sheets Per Day

A+ Texture LLC

Do you guys prefer 2 or 3 man hangin crews and how much should they get done per day (TOTAL not per guy). Lets use 12' sheets and smaller as an example (we can't get anything longer here) and a 2000 sq ft house with 9' ceilings. A typical subdivision home. I'm looking for averages here not the fastest crews you can think of.

silverstilts

My two guys would do that in an 8 hr day without working too hard butand by being steady , i have seen others that worked for me do it in less time and not use a router but hand cut everything and not miss a box & everything tight like it should be in about six hours because of there experience knowing what the other is doing and working as one ..... i have seen others take 2 or more days that is based on a 2000' home with about 150 pcs. of board..(7400') realistically about a day and half for most though....and what i pay that is damn good @.25 per ft. I think a 3 man crew works the best as one is cutting and the other 2 hang works much faster if they have years together as a crew...

Whitey97

^ I agree with everything you said, even the pay! being we're from the same area

Custom Drywall Svc.

well, you all know what im going to say bout those prices..... 25 cents a sq. ft? (is this correct??)

so, lets do the math:

- assumumptions:

- 2 man crew (thats what i would use)
- 1 day to hang (or 8 hrs x 2 men = 16 tot. man hrs.)

so, 2000 sf house, accounting for wallboard feet, 9' ceilings lets say 7,500 board sq. ft. at the minimum.

1. 7500 sf x .25/sf = $1,875

2. $1,875 / 2 men = $937.50 (per hanger)

3. $937.50 / 8 hrs = $117.19 / hr.


hmmm......118 bucks an hour.....not bad for an honest days work right?

Stilts...i might as well close my business, and become one of your hangers. i'd LOVE to work for your company. working for Stilts, he'll pay me over 100 bucks an hour!

............


God help if you are running a business Stilts. don't blame the economy if you have to close down, please. just being honest, not trying to rile you up. but that is insane.

i HOPE I AM WRONG. please say that my math is wrong, and that i have something terribly misunderstood. PLEASE.


ok ok....im willing to consider you meant 2000 sf TOTAL, incl. wallboard. lets try that......see how that math works.

1. 2000 sf. x .25 cents/sf = $500

2. $500 / 2 men = $250

3. $250 / 8 hrs = $31.25 / hr.

well......ill still say this, at 32 bucks an hour -- i'd still love to work for you stilts.


Stilts, in all seriousness....i dont know what kind of 'labor market prices' you have in your area.....but BOTH those scenarios i presented above are ridiculous......even at 32 bucks an hour. God forbid 118 bucks an hour.

I honestly dare anyone on this forum to agree that 32 bucks an hour or 118 bucks an hour for hanging is appropriate and acceptable??? i dont care how experienced you are.........and in times like this??????

no way. not even in the best of times.

unless you subcontract hangers from Lowe's or Home Depot, the numbers you are talking about paying are just insane. any way you cut it.

you are terribly spoiling the labor market if you pay prices like that.

its not possible.......i HAVE to be wrong.....i have to have misread or misunderstood something.

do you have employees as hangers working FOR you? or is this subcontracted hangers Stilts?

if they were subcontracted, that is the only way that would make sense.

silverstilts

You are correct in assuming that I used 7500' on my calculations , what is wrong with this pic is the fact it goes back to what a person is worth . If I was only a contractor that only hung board and hired guys ( BY THE HOUR ) then no i would not be paying them $118.00 per hour but rather in the 32-35 range..... You missed the point again ,You are a contractor , MY Hangers are also contractors , so that's what i contract out my hanging with them at ... So they put a little profit into there pockets , Isn't this what is all about ????? You profit off from subbing out work from contractors & homeowners , and it is no different for the hangers that I hire .... If you are self-employed whats the point of working for someone for an hourly wage ??? These guys are in the same boat as you and I they are trying to make a decent living ....Not to mention I still make a profit margin off of them . Do you see my point now ? I tell you that unless you make some serious money being self employed you may as well go to work by the hour and not have any of the stress.... yes I do make into the med. six digits , have been for years , and I doubt I will ever go under ( been through way too much other than just a sluggish economy & the recession that is upon us ) , I know my business and I know it very well , I know what works and have the profits to prove it , I don't need to squeeze those who work for me just for my own greed ... Things are great , and after 30 years plus will you be able to say the same ???

silverstilts

Just to clarify the point the hangers I use are subbing work from me .... as to what whitey that pay is the going rate .... it's not just hear either seems to me I have read other posts with similar pay scales . So I am not worked up Custom may over read things at times , but hey , only a guy with opinions .

Darren@Partners

First, I think you're off on the footage. For a 2000 floor foot house w/ 9' ceilings, I guess upwards of 8000 at least w/o a garage.

And my guys would charge me around half of what you are paying.

More power to you if this business model is working. Obviously the recession has not made it to your part of the world. Here we have builders cutting out the DW contractor altogether, hiring hangers and tapers directly and buying their own rock. They think were gouging them. Hope none of them ever find this thread.

Custom is right again. No offense Silver, enjoy those numbers.

A+ Texture LLC

I think the customer base you appeal to is a factor. Quality of work too. Thats my angle on my jobs, trying to do a better job then these guys hiring a gang af mexicans to beat the crap out of the board with hammers and nails. I was shocked to see what some of my competition is doing. For the last 6 or 7 years I've done loads of modulars and doublewides, don't laugh, I can make a grand a day EASY, sometimes more. And I know theres guys around will charge $600 for what I charge 1,100. The difference is I have letters of recomendation from dealers and Bigwigs from the largest builder of doublewides in the Southwest. So If you can make a grand in a day, ride that pony till it dies. And lets all pray this economy picks up and we can all start making money again. Cuz God knows it's getting harder.

Custom Drywall Svc.

okay, then they are subcontracted...........still....a few questions:

Why are you subconracting your hanging, may i ask? you dont have hangers employed underneath you that you can pay whatever wage you want?

if you are operating a business as a drywall subcontractor, then do you act as a 'drywall general' and subcontract everything out, i.e. hanging, finishing, texturing? if the answer is 'yes' then why are you in business then? -- you are paying retail prices arent you? Where im from......25 cents per sf for hanging......is what i would charge a CUSTOMER of mine....thats, labor ALONE.

stilts, trust me....i don't want to offend you, criticize you, let alone tell you how to run your business.....but you are the one getting price gouged my friend......ASSUMING i'm correct (i still feel im missing your entire picture here, and things are just easily lost in translation on here for obvious reasons and that i'm missing a few key pts).

to second what Darren said above, yea stilts...if this business model IS working for you, and you can make a decent profit on it -- good.......great actually.

my opinion (and btw you're right, it is my opinion only...im glad you respect and acknowledge that) is that...the range you talk above as being 'okay,' in your area, 30 -25 per hour.....

THAT'S quite a shocker. Where i operate..........lets put it this way, if a hanger came into my office looking for employment....and stated on his application that he was accustomed to making over $30 bucks an hour.....there's not one second of hesitation where i, or even my head foreman would tell the guy to take a hike.

and in times like this??? that would be pure OFFENSIVE to ask for that much per hour.

i've never even seen a 'whiteboy' (no offense to anyone) demand more than 25 per hour......and STILL, thats laughable.

currently in my office (where i am typing this -- yea its that slow hahaha).......behind me, i got two folders stacked full with at least 40 apps each.........most of them hangers....about 25% of them finishers.

anyways, i'll tell you right now stilts......i have a section on my app that reads 'desired wage: ____'

for my area stilts, the seemingly desired wage, or what i like to think of as my markets 'current labor rate avg'.........is 11 bucks an hour.

yea, i got some that go as high (what i think is high) as $15 bucks per hr.........one even at 18$ per hour.....but thats as high as it goes my friend. i have one even as low as $8 bucks per hour......thats my states min. wage.

but yea, most of these are in the $10 - $12 per hour range.

stilts, think about that for a second......and compare it to what you're paying.

now, i know what you're gonna say...'you have the best hangers in your area, and my hangers are all amateur, mexican hacks, and they dont do quality work, etc etc'

but seriously....ask yourself.....what IS 'quality' today??? im not gonna preach and say i have the best hangers in town......but my BUSINESS is based on reputation and quality work. i couldnt have stayed in business THIS LONG now if it wasnt based on that alone. yea, i may not be the highest paying in town.....but i know i can compete with ANYONE. what matters to me and my customers is the FINAL product i deliver.

i had a person ask me why my work is so expensive....jokingly saying 'well youre probably using "Jose Gonzales" to hang my house anyways, i know those guys cant cost you that much at all!'

everytime someone puts me in a position like this and says that to me, i always answer:

"hey...are you paying for my employees? or are you paying for my EXPERTISE and knowledge in this industry? because anyone can do drywall, lets face it.......but the reason you called my company, is because you've seen and KNOW the end-result and final product i deliver..."

100% of the time, you know how they answer? they usually just embarrassingly chuckle -- because they know im right.


and thats no joke stilts.....im not tryin to blow steam or any BS like that at you, but im just bein serious.....ANYONE can do drywall......its sad, but true. what id like to believe sets me apart from the rest and why i charge FOR that -- is my knowledge.

in my small - medium sized market, my name is synonymous with 'drywall'......i'll tell you one thing, people may not use me all the time to do the drywall in their house because of my price....but as soon as something goes wrong with their current sub.......guess who they call to come fix it.

again, im not trying to sound arrogant, or cocky when i say that, but its true. like how you say this is your business, and you know it well -- you are not the only one that can claim that my friend. fortunately, we both can.


anyways, you are right when you say that "MY Hangers are also contractors , so that's what i contract out my hanging with them at ... So they put a little profit into there pockets , Isn't this what is all about ????? You profit off from subbing out work from contractors & homeowners , and it is no different for the hangers that I hire .... If you are self-employed whats the point of working for someone for an hourly wage ???"

yea, there is nothing wrong with this.....but, its not the only option. Thats the wonderful thing about the u.s. is that it is a free market based on capitalism. make all the money you want, within legal means....

stilts, what im trying to say is, you dont HAVE to hire a 'hanging subcontractor??' Unless you are doing this to give yourself a 'good feeling' inside...knowing that you are sharing your hard-earned money around to other people or 'enriching your local economy,' it doesnt make sense. the only way i see this working, is if your end-customer is paying for it -- that would make sense. although, i just dont see that happening as well....i would have to markup an arm and a leg to the customer at the rates you are paying -- just not practical.

i dont know....please clarify if i am totally not getting it, but i would never 'subcontract' out my labor? i dont see the use of this unless you are doing it for charitable causes. this is definitely not the most profitable approach....but then again, i really DONT know your true intentions, so that maybe just it right there.

is that .25/sf hanging subcontractor including the cost of sheetrock also????

so how much you pay for finishing? do you perform this yourself? which i can see you saving money that way....


eh, i dunno...still confused. just doesnt sound right. but its your business....and im glad you have been around so long. as far as my company? yea, im sure we'll be around another 30 years.....the question is do i WANT to be doing drywall that much longer? hell no.

i want to sell the company within 5.-6 years and work on my real estate and land development.

much less headache w/ more money.

...whats the old saying about real estate?


"God ain't makin' anymore of it"

Custom Drywall Svc.

yea, you are definitely right.....for the sake of being cordial, i put in 7500 as a CONSERVATIVE number....the model house i usually do like that for my production builder (1900 sf, 9' clngs), a standard plan ALWAYS stocks 8,600. that is incl. the garage.

hahha....

anyways, yes Darren, you saw what i wrote above....if he can make it work like that, hell...more power to ya. i just dont see a market like that sustaining though......unless he's doing drywall on another planet, i believe there is NO WHERE in the u.s. paying labor rates such as his.

however, i was watching Dateline, i believe the other night....where they were talking about a SMALL SMALL mid-western town where their local economy was not depressed, but THRIVING....construction esp BOOMING nearly. they interviewed some joint-fitter i think saying that he'd have no problem if he lost his job today....because he knew another construction company would hire him the next day.

yea, i know...amazing.

so, wherever stilts is from....ya neverrrr know! hah! Dateline may have been in his freakin neighborhood for all i know.

just as you say though Darren: "Obviously the recession has not made it to your part of the world."

anyways...to EVERYONE:

GOOD LUCK OUT THERE

silverstilts

yes income may be somewhat higher here than out west and yes i am sure you have to deal with a lot of hacks and cutthroats there . drywall contractors come and go and the ones that work cheap around here won't last more than a couple of jobs because of the lousy work , it is not a metropolitan area here and relatively a small area 'work quality' done by the hacks well lets just say the word gets out real fast and not to mention there still seems to be a sense of loyalty here ... back to the taping yes i do that myself along with a few guys that have worked for me for quite some time , i have gone through so many guys that have told me their journeymen when they don't even preformed to an apprentice level , i always give people the benefit of doubt usually one day i can tell but even give them one week to prove themselves starting a new job and such if it don't work out they are done. i pay top dollar because i hand pick those that work for me . i don't just put people on the job to satisfy a contractor ... it can cause to many problems and undo what took me years in my opinion to get to where i am at... I've paid my dues more than you can imagine don't want ruin my reputation on s**t work done by someone else , I think you know what i am talking about......it can take one bad job to give a contractor a bad taste and to look elsewhere can't have that happen.... there is so much to it i could never explain it .... ramble on i do

eastex1963

Drywall subs are getting .18 sq. ft. here. The "good" ones, anyways. I don't just hang. Can't seem to make any $$$ at it. I DO hang AND finish....the finish is where I make my money. My rates(as of today) are anywhere between .42 to .50 sq. ft. to hang and finish, supplying all but rock.

Btw, the hangers are usually a 3 man crew...takes a good day to hang 7500 sq. ft. Heck, I hung 4000 sq. ft. for a friend (freebie) by myself saturday in about 6 hours. Lids and walls.

silverstilts

No Dateline has not been here and yes the recession has hit my area as well most general contractors as well as a lot of tapers are starving for work but a few of us still remain strong and it looks like a good year so far , a lot of new projects coming up ,knock on wood right...

Darren@Partners

Am constantly amazed at the impression the non-drywall public have of the appearance of work. folks seem to care much more about their wallets than what their drywall looks like. Ask a painter, he'll tell you true. These cutthroats and hacks, some do passin' work, meaning folks expect a painter to make it look right, and with a thick-a** roller or texture paint, they usually can or at least help hide the BS. So they get the idea that quality drywall work isn't worth the extra money.

The big outfits, if they turn out a turd, they send an army out to fix some or most and go on to the next victim. The truth about the cutthroats is ... most are really good tradesmen who are out of work and went on their own, but have yet to learn the cost of doing business. Maybe the wife has a great job and the don't have to make a killing, just as long as they don't lose too much along the way. These guys are the same ones who were your last really good finisher but had to lay them off or fill in the blank. Regardless, now they are competing for work that should be coming y/our way. But no, those guys are glad to get the work and really don't care about the trade. Oh they talk some good sh** but if they truly did they'd not lower the entire industry that way.

Then there are what I call "those" guys. Maybe they are an immigrant(legal and speaking English) who've been here a while or maybe some local who falls into some big work somehow. But their MO is to hire a bunch of guys to work on the big job then steal their money and go on to another area(usually gypsy-type hotel and apt. work). They beat (or allow the GC to) the price to the dirt so the established guys finally won't even bid those jobs anymore. These same guys take the supply houses and yards for a good ride, along with anybody else wlo'll give em credit. They are scum and we all know at least three to ten of these sh**birds.

Maybe all this belongs on another thread and someone out there fits the description and will rip on me for the above. Big deal. I treat my people fairly and pay them at least the going rate. But "those" guys ruin it not only for me and my men but for all reputable contractors, drywall or otherwise.

Earlier post I mentioned how builders are starting to end-around the DW contractor and hire hangers and tapers because they think the gouge is on, been told that by one just last week. That perception doesn't come out of nowhere fellas. While I don't begrudge those getting all they can, beware everybody is watching the housing business right now. You think these builders don't talk with one and another?

What I'm trying to say is... pricing too low or too high is causing serious damage to the entire industry. And them mid-sized outfits are the ones that are gonna pay along with their workers, who'll really be affected most.

Cutthroating sucks. It sucks to go up against it and lose. It sucks for the guy having to do it to feed his family. I get that.

But gouging is like heroin. Bet it feels great but some day the stuff won't be there and then they'll get the DTs.

Sorry for the rant. But boy do I feel better

Custom Drywall Svc.

yea, hear that.....

and contractors DO talk, thats for damn sure. especially in small towns. Darren, just last month, i had a contractor do the same thing to me.....hire his own hangers and tapers off the street to perform the drywall at 'half my bid price.' however, not just do the big generals talk, but also us subs.....

and what you said about non-drywall people only thinking about their wallets, i couldnt agree more.

bottomline, (not just because this is our industry) drywall to me, is the MOST important element in any house. drywall and paint, let me rephrase......its literally everything you see, or at least a good 80-85% of it. think about it.

we cant just hide our work like a shoddy electrician or a plumber behind walls (no offense to those trades).

the main thing i stress to a potential customer who is hesitant on pricing, is 'hey....the drywall in your house is one of the first things you will see when you wakeup in in the morning, and very well one of the last things you see before you go to bed at night -- its literally ALL around you. pricing is not the ONLY thing to consider, when choosing a sub. the end product DOES matter."

flat out, thats how i usually tell them......sometimes they come around, sometimes they think im full of it -- whatever. you win some, you lose some.


Darren, also about your rant, i cant help think some of it is directed at myself. maybe, maybe not. maybe to everyone! but im curious is to how it came about, did something you read here particularly set you off?

Custom Drywall Svc.

CHEERS!

Custom Drywall Svc.

Good luck to ya buddy, and more power.........the forecast for my area is terribly gloomy, to be honest. im going to be as conservative to say that this year is done, and hopefully by mid 2010 i FEEL it will come back up.

thank god ive been wise enough in the past, during the real estate 'boom' to not go buy big boats and big cars like my other counterparts who are -- well, out of business.

i knew the high times werent going to last, and i cant help but saying that 'i told everyone so' but hey...look where they are.........im fortunate enough to say i'll have no problem 'surviving' through this.....but man, its just depressing nonetheless. everyday on the news its something else with the economy.

the media definitely doesnt help, and i feel that make it worse by exaggerating and overstating things to a point where average citizens go into a panic, freezing everything to a stand-still in the economy.

sigh. for those of you just barely hanging on....i commend you.......and lets keep things positive. in our life, AND on this forum especially!

hahha.....
honestly, im really glad theres a specific forum like this for us 'drywall brothers' that can band together and share frustrations as well as tips.

theres not a whole lot of people we can turn to who understand our plight in this industry. i was so pleasantly surprised when i first found this forum....people venting the EXACT same problems as i was facing, as well as sharing trade knowledge, not just throughout the u.s., but throughout the world.

not to sound cheesy or corny.....

but thanks guys, just for being here.

Darren@Partners

Custom, my rant directed at those who are screwing builders and homeowners alike, doing so and revelling in it. I don't believe your the type that closes a deal and says "Gee, I really f***ed that guy." I had a partner once who was like that and note "had". I've always done business to stay in business. I understand the differences from my market to that of others. I have no problem with somebody maximizing profitablitity. So, no, not really directing at you.

I've been stewing awhile on the "end-around" for some time as well as "those guys" cheating the workers. Been aiming to go start another thread on both, but I guess I let loose all at once.
So I wouldn't say anything on this thread set me off per se. Well except seeing hangers get paid .25 (No offense to Silver). Maybe that's what he's gotta pay. I hung for enough years to have some empathy, but .25? I hope his hangers know what the rest of the world gets and thanks him every single payday.

No one be offended by this.... By paying those rates, what happens hangers see that and then DW contractors elsewhere start to get pressure to raise footage rates. Maybe not so much right now, but the potential exists. Maybe it is same as us discussing board and mud prices here. But you get the picture. A penny here, a penny there. I don't think hanging rates in MI or Canada will affect me because I won't let it. Not now or ever.

Funny you should use that line about drywall being what you see all around you...That's almost word-for-word my quality speech I make to workers and customers alike.

And "gloomy"... While the pace here is probably better than many other markets, it still stinks. Residential const. here has been pretty much devastated. I won't go on about it as it's too depressing.

And for market pressures from above and below, for me to go on about that borders on colusion(price fixing).

But I do indeed get great comfort on the forum. Seeing that others face similar issues and are equally minded(mostly). Corny or not, I too, thank all for being ther as well.

Whitey97

instead of raggin on him for paying him that, maybe you should see what that includes. I'm sure his answer may be something like, moving the sheet rock from where the stockers left it (in the garage) rock the house, scrap and sweep. That I can definitly see being paid that much for. I know I agreed with how much he pays his rockers, however that's what I charge when I do it. When I have my other guys do it, it's between .16 - .20. I really don't see anything that's wrong with that. That is what the going rate is here.

Custom Drywall Svc.

AMEN brotha.

I'm glad to know that you and i think very much alike Darren.

That is why (no offense to stilts) i am so appalled when i hear prices like that. This is exactly what i mean when i say 'spoiling the labor market.' I've witnessed this 'animal' particularly during the boom years ago, when things were near golden. certain 'diva' hanging and finishing crews would step onto my doorstep demanding (yes demanding) that their crew be paid 'no less' than .15 cents/sf. (this is considered high btw in my market...for finishing or hanging).

yes, Darren and you are right, this is DEFINITELY not prevalent in todays market...not at all. the labor market is begging for anything they can get.....unfortunately, i just dont have any more room in my company. but its sad when you see the amount of desperation out there.

sigh, crap......man, im starting to depress myself.

ANYWAYS

Darren, yea what i said.....'OUR' speech....is exactly right. people tend to take for granted the drywall aspect of their homes....hell, i do too at times, ill admit it. some people, absolutely do NOT give a sh-t about their drywall......not one sh-t (which is annoying in itself), but for a large number of people i would LIKE to think it matters......drywall IS your house...its the most cosmetic material INSIDE your home. how it looks MATTERS.........for example, one long wall is supposed to look like ONE, long, flat wall...............not six 4 x 12 drywall panels that you can play tic tac toe on........

things like this, matter.........and its funny how really stupid homeowners..... don't even realize they're house is composed of drywall, until imperfections and flat out bad workmanship rears its ugly head. they don't even consider how 'hmmm, maybe drywall is important....lets look for a quality company to do this!!!" nope, that thought usually doesn't go thru a naive homeowners head.....but hey, you sure saved a lot of money going with Joe Blows Drywall bid didn't ya?? so things are still okay!! pat yourself on the back!!!

and maybe you can call Joe Blow Drywall to come back and fix all the sh-t that is now falling apart in your house! Hell, he'll be glaaaaad to do it.....he was SO NICE to you wasnt he, especially when he was trying to get the job??!! maybe he'll suck your di-k like last time when he fixes everything! just call him!

but wait a minute, his phone number no longer exists? that cant be, you must've dialed it wrong! maybe they moved offices or changed their number....................why...theres no way they would be out of BUSINESS, right????? Noooo...

maybe you can look up their contractors license number online...obtain their new office location and phone number that way!...........oh wait...but you just finally remembered, they aren't licensed!

wait...your a genius...you just realized you saved the signed contract agreement from Joe Blow! im sure the warranty information is on there! every company has one that guarantees its work for at least a year! its only been 6 mos., if you could only FIND that contract...where is it?

ah, wait......silly you, that day, Joe Blow, the owner said his copier was down! he couldnt print you a copy of your contract! aww, oh well....sh-t happens right? im sure your copy machine has went down on ya time to time, its understandable!

well...dont panic yet.....dont you still remember the name of his insurance carrier? oh ....waittttt a minute.....that was the OTHER drywall guy, who provided all that information himself....yea, that guy was a schmuck huh? went through all this trouble to provide me his insurances and business license, and contractor references......pshhh, you didnt need that! he was expensive anyways!

hell, you saved 1500 bucks remember!