Union - Nonunion

silverstilts

So many years since the forming of unions to capture the prosperity and working conditions of many... Not only in our trade but in all aspects of jobs . From doctors to mechanics , to garbage men , to all kinds of factories . Don't matter what field of work or what skill there is always a union.... The union has had some ups and downs and likewise with the members , but the common ground was always better wages and better working conditions.. So what does this have to do with non-union skilled trades... that would be union workers unite and stand firm until an agreeable solution is met ( at least they try ) why can not non union trades stick together as far as pricing goes... is there so much greed that some have to cut there profit to 0 whats the point?? just to have a job that won't pay sh#t after so much time has passed... Come on guys let's stick together , I am not Repeat I am not talking about price fixing but a standard price that is fair to all....I don't see this so much here where i live because i do have enough GC that treat me fair but let's weed out all the cutthroats out there ..... I know for my fellow brother drywallers it is tough... Let's find a solution and put an end to this.

Darren@Partners

When a union sets a price it is "collective bargaining". When (republican) business owners do it it's collusion.

I agree that we need a "floor " price, but before this goes any further, someone needs get a lawyer's opinion. This new anti-small business climate make it very difficult to acheive. But I am open to hearing "legal" options / opinions.

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Darren@Partners

The first thing would be to have licensing and insurance requirements and stiffer lien laws in all states and provinces.

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rhardman

How about an association of licensed contractors meeting a range of minimal requirements?

For instance, a certain number of years in business, having all the legalities taken care of with members located nationally. Specific job types would be advertised that the company wants to focus on.

Today's labor unions focus on governmental, industrial and large institutional projects. I'm talking about something specifically targeted to the National Home Builders Association and large residential Architectural firms.

It would be advantageous to the Architects and the NAHB as their members/clients would be supported by higher level of reputable Drywall businesses with exceptional standards of professionalism.

Here's where your pricing comes in...

A general guideline of labor prices could be determined by region that the members would need to follow. If they didn't or if they created a bad reputation, their membership would be cancelled and they would not receive leads for new projects.

Membership dues would be needed for advertising with the NAHB (and other markets) and when conferences were held, local members of the association could have booths at them. There may also be an advantage to advertising in a wide variety of other ways.

But however it was implemented, I'm sure there are a range of contractors that would be interested in a higher level of business relationship.

Or would they just want the lowest price?

Darren@Partners

Well, most will want the lowest price but still blow sunshine about what great work you turn out but this other guy will do it for this much less.

And an association exists now with AWCI, Walls & Ceilings, etc. but they really don't have any requirements other than "membership" fees. I am not a member, but do get their monthly trade rags.

Here in MO and across the line in KS, no requirements exist for Drywall Contractors - period. Any jakeleg can hang out a shingle and call himself a contractor. We're even seeing guys that used to sub our work going straight to the builders offering to do the work for less than they charged us, with the builder buying materials.

And the unions? The unspoken truth is (here) that the union shops are even doing work under scale just avoid layoffs, or taking jobs away from independents. These are typically jobs that once bid WAY too cheap for union shops to look at.

And with KS being a right-to-work state (not that it matters because it's everywhere on tax funded work), the prevailing wage jobs have also gone "pirate". No one is checking to see that the workers on the job are paid that absurd prevailing wage. At Fort Riley, KS they are now renegotiating (lower) all the contracts, something like 35% with respect to labor. A (tear-down)mechanic getting $18+ and health ins. is going to get $11 and only 10% of his health ins. paid under the new contract. So maybe someone in govt. is seeing the light. But low bid GC's still lose out to higher bidders because of higher Minority & Women Business Enterprise participation. It cost the govt. an additional 22K on a Nat'l Guard Armory remodel in MO this spring. But I digress....

Until more (all) states require licensing, there will always be low-ballers, hacks, and jakelegs. And until the economic climate improves, GCs willing to use them.

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rockdaddy

JFK once said, " If we are strong, our strength will speak for itself."
No truer were have been spoken and as germain to this post. The union guys are no better than open shop guys. Because one has attended a six month school working on mock ups in a classroom setting is no better trining than OJT with a salty old rock dog. Unions do not serve the membership but rather the heiarchy of the Union itself.
On the pricing note, what I have found to work the best when it comes to securing contracts is ;
1. NEVER let anything get in the way of quality. Not price. Not any of the green supers you are forced to train how to do their jobs. Not schedule time. Work harder, smarter, and faster than the other guy.
2.Know your product better than any of your competitors.
3. Have a better relationship with your suppliers than your competitors.
4.Keep your pricing in line with the market demand. Markets change constantly and so do prices. Adjust your pricing before your builder does it for you because it makes it easier to get the increase when you need it.
5. If you want fixed prices move to a socialist country. This is America the home of free enterprise and open markets. Make your own niche exploit it and dominateyour peice of the work and own it.

silverstilts

I am not talking about price fixing period !!!!! that was mentioned in the first post , but rather get the pricing up where it belongs for most of you out there are working for nothing it seems... work like a dog and then get treated like one , myself my pricing never has gone down just to get a job , I am one of the fortunate ones that have a good solid business relationship and loyalty from the general contractors I work for ... They have never tried to beat me down on price .... Individual Home owners well if they want me cheap they will have to look elsewhere for the right sucker .. You are so right on most all your points , but a little confused on one issue and that is Not scheduling time , not sure what you mean but I assume it is don't let the contractor dictate how much time we have for a job... General Contractors most times are on a strict schedule and we as subs must be willing to meet their deadlines IF RESONABLE , most times it is... And I agree it is the USA and a free enterprise but what good is that if you are constantly lowering your pricing and trading dollar for dollar ??? You can only go so low before you can't even afford to pay the bills... Most low bidders bid low and then don't pay for their materials go figure that ..... then there is a lien filed against the job or contractor to cover the fly by nights.....

Darren@Partners

Ditto what Silver posted. Except to say the low bidders are also chumping their subs more than the supply house. You'd think these desparate subs would wise up at some point and quit doing their work. The supply houses do get wise quick but there are, for now, still many subs still willing to work for a week or two on spec for these turds.
I am not looking for a "fixed" price either. But rather a license and insurance requirement structure that levels the field for all. As well as a comprehensive policing of prevailing wage adherence. Never has a bigger joke been foisted upon the taxpaying public, along with MBE / WBE requirements. Awarding jobs based on minorty or women owned business participation is discriminatory and in the end result in a less qualified bidder being awarded the bid at a higher cost. End result, these public projects cost more and we go broke.

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Custom Drywall Svc.

I completely agree, especially the notion that it 'levels' the playing field.

I (as well as all of us nearly) are bidding against hacks that carry no insurance and in some cases can hardly communicate to the customer let alone speak english. Hell, if i my business had no insurance or overhead, i could bid just as CHEAP!!??

i swear, the only words these guys know how to mutter to the customer is "no permit needed"....."can do job for cheap"......"pay cash only"....."gracias."


...

Whitey97

Oh, you guys are so passionate. It's great!

Darren@Partners

BTW...A union shop underbid a colleague last month on an acoustical ceiling tile job. Union shop $3800. My buddy $6800. And they call us rats.

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MEXICAN ROCK 4 U

union /non union /home owners vs Mexican workers:

My point of view "union" contractor hire Mexican workers just to do the hard part of the job or crappy-work that brown nose wont do and get rid of them soon as possible they don't care if they speak English ,have legal papers as long as they paid dues ,wages are good so do medical benefits its hard to keep a job, ($32.00 p/hr) not bad. BA. & personnel in office sure they work really hard for the money ( doubt it )


"NON UNION" this is a whole different story employers hire Mexicans
because : can paid less than his white worker wont even hire black people,give him a 1099 misc. an don't paid taxes at all , false accusation of stealing tools and don't paid him , forced to work Sundays & over 12 hr with no over time paid , paid penny's for piece work ($4~$5 4'x12')and his charging $2 bucks sq,ft.


"HOME OWNERS" when a home owner hires a Mexican worker for sure he had 3 other bids from some union contractor,non- union contractor it will be 50 to 30% less same quality as union or non- union he has to survive some how.


To fixed this mess law makers should start forcing any body who performed construction work to buy liability insurance, workers comp ,and some kind of credential license fine the crooks employers ... THERE I FIXED MY GRAMMAR / SPELLING if i write Spanish it will be more offensive .

LSDrywall

Wtf?

silverstilts

I am a little confused too don't think I want to even go there not yet anyhow Its too early in the morning ...

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aka the rock doctor

rebel20

Thats okay I been awake for 6 hrs and still haven't figured it out.

Rebel

Darren@Partners

I'll hit it. Hey pal, the law already requires insurance. It also requires you cross the border legally. And that smack about unions hiring our brown friends for the hard work, who do you think was getting laid off after 89 days before you arrived anyway? Yep, that's right, us.

And for us screwing you on footage, etc., the legal mexicans have gotten pretty adept at screwing his illegal countrymen too. And it's NON-union, not NONE union. Welcome to America.

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Darren@Partners

PS: we don't 1099 you cuz you are mexican, we 1099 all sub crews. We are not responsible to pay the taxes, YOU are!!!! And I don't see too many U. S. citizens sneaking into Mexico to have babies at taxpayer expense.

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rebel20

wow as we say in germany Geil

joepro0000

This is true!

Al Taper

Well here is my story. I came in the trades as a carpenter. Worker for 10 yrs as a carpenter. Then after I got married my wife and I were haveing a kid and I need bennys. And fast. Called the carpenters union and the ahole that I spoke to didnt know a damn thing. So I called the drywall union and came in as a green horn. And worked my way up to full rate..
So been in the drywall finisher union since 99. And I just spoke to the agent down at my hall and Iam going to sign up as a contractor. Doing this homeowner/ builder work is just for the birds.. Bust your ass to get to get the job done and what to get payed..
As a union contractor you are bidding for the same wage.

I have always had my company up and running because of years like this one. I worked 7 weeks union this year.. Didnt even make 10k union this years.. That just sucks...