Builders doing an End-Around

Darren@Partners

Here it is guys. Most of you probably heard it already. But anyone else out there seeing their (or other) builders hiring hangers and tapers, buying materials and doing without the Drywall Contractor?

If it's slow and can't keep your workers busy, do you begrudge them if they take this work? When they get screwed, do they tell you and what if anything do you do or say?

Do you blacklist the builder when or if he was to call you again? Or just raise his price and subtly put him further down on your priority list?

I know how I'll deal with this. But love to hear from all you guys contractors and subs alike. Thanks in advance.

Whitey97

They can buy materials anytime, it doesn't bug me. One less weight over my head to deal with. If they want to try and hire another rocker, bring it on, I'll pick it apart and tell them how much they suck. Or on the other hand if they're good, maybe I'll use them in the future! lol.

One of the things I personally see is this, The drywall contractor subing, and the sub subing, I love it, I think it's hilarious. You know they won't last. Until then, I'll take their work!

But in regards to your question. I would keep them up front, not do anything special, but rub it in their face that they f'd up. Keep business ethics up, where it normally is, and as the saying goes, "kill 'em with kindness"

Custom Drywall Svc.

OOOH i will DEFINITELY elaborate on this tomorrow Darren, you know it. this is a great topic....but its gettin a bit late here though, and i finally need to go to bed. gotta wake up early tomorrow because itll be 'so busy' tomorow at work.

Darren@Partners

Looking forward to it.

Custom Drywall Svc.

oh yea whitey.....sure do agree with that last part. i always try to stay professional as i can, working with ethics in mind...but it sure does feel good when you hear those guys fkkng up hahaha.

i personally have a 'black list' of contractors sign hanging in my scheduling room of contractors who have screwed me over in the past. its funny, because the names on that board...about 9-10.......they are no longer in business -- not a single one.

Custom Drywall Svc.

man, this is interesting and a great topic Darren, i gotta say.

'times like this' we are experiencing the oddest requests and behavior from the market rite now. not exactly 'odd' per se.....

but more than ever, im getting customers asking things like 'what if i buy the sheetrock'........'can you breakdown only labor for me?'........'what if i provide the mud'........'can you breakdown this that, etc etc'

you and i know, thats freakin annoying. and a waste of time. first off, i hate divulging any bit of my pricing to my customers, not that i NEVER do it....i understand in some cases. but as business owners and true business men, im sure we all of course try to keep as much as we can to ourselves....fearing competition around the corner could be in the shadows.


and whitey, i know you mentioned that its less hassle for you, if they buy their own materials......but if they prefer to do this, i always state in my contract that they have to buy the TYPE of material i tell them to buy.

no offense, but Hindus LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE doing this.....as in, trying to bargain by buying their own material. in my area, they are notorious for this.

but whitey, i state that they have to buy what i tell them to, because ONE TIME in particular....about 2-3 years ago, i had a guy do this on a 20,000 board sf house........thats a lotta board of course.

.....the guy bought all the material......in 8 footers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

he had absolutely NO 12's!!!!!!!!!!!!! saying he didnt even know they made that length of sheetrock! what a moron!!

do you know how many seams and buttjoints i had to deal with in that house?????? hahhahahhahahha

aw man, my finishers were complaining for DAYYYYYS hhahhahah. i had to pay them .2 cents extra just to shutup.

sighhh...looking back, its quite funny....especially since i got the price i wanted for the house, even with the 8's........but now, reducing margins as everyone else is doing, we cannot afford a mishap like that happening these days.

Darren, i got other stories that i'll elaborate on later! haha!

Whitey97

I totally see where you are coming from. However, I pretty much give them an itemized price list, and when they see what is all on there, they are overwhelmed. It pretty much shuts 'em up. However I do see what you're saying on big jobs. 8's would be a nightmare! I would just show up, laugh, and tell him to take them back and re-stock! Oh, and I'm sure your "black list" and all the rest of ours, the trend is similar, lol

Darren@Partners

Gotta love that term Hindus, sure better than make we've been calling them here. They make even a true capitalist squirm.

joepro0000

Hey Custom Drywall,

you mean your referring to EL CHEAPOS. Damn they got me too with their cheap ass ****! I don't know why, but the poor-hard working people always pay better than the rich people.

Darren-

It sucks, and what can you do, deny work at a time like this...? I would go no-matter what and do the work.

Whitey97

^ amen!

Custom Drywall Svc.

Jeez, youd be surprised Joe......

you got that damn right. i encounter a lot of wealthy customers, and i find that they are nearly just as cheap or cheaper than the blue collar people....

example...theres this real estate tycoon in our area........i got the chance to bid his house, and you will not BELIEVE how much this guy was tryin to save a nickel here and there.........i mean, i get it u know, everyone wants to save money wherever they can, and 'you dont gain wealth by spending it' yada yada, but this guy.....seemingly the 'donald trump' of my area was amazingly frugal.

i honestly just stopped pursuing his business.....because, after all our going back and forth.....(he even wanted to do cash) i finally realized he wouldnt stop trying to negotiate until i was near my cost.

and, it wasnt just that......but to top it off, the 5000 sf custom home he was building was VERY difficult......very very complex. every room nearly had a different ceiling design/soffitt.....26' high clngs, etc etc.

and its not like the house was too complicated and that i shy'd away from it, that wasnt the point -- but for the price i know he wanted, i couldnt do it. no way.

he wanted prestigious, super high-end custom home work, for the price of a 'nice production home.'

lets put it this way, a NORMAL 4-5000 sf custom home.....i roughly schedule my production @ 1000 floor sf/ week.........so, roughly 4-5 wks a house that size will take us.

his house was complicated enough @ 5000 sf.......that my company, i was sure of it, would be on the job at least 2-3 months.

i dunno...customers like that can get really frustrating of course......he just wasnt reasonable at all.....and i understand he is a business man as so am i....but 'doing business' requires a 2-way street, while he was easily just riding 1-way.

interesting more than anything, honestly....coming across people like that.

and joe, ur right....the blue collar type seem to haggle me less....i THINK because, being 'working folk' they KNOW more perhaps, of what physically goes into building a house, so they know what prices should be around.......................who knows.

Darren@Partners

I agree Joe, I won't be turning up my nose either. Will plat by ear, but bet he's gonna slide down the priority list a little. And yes, the uber-wealthy have been a little more likely to work a fella on price. Yeh, I guess the don't wind up millionaires by accident. It's the sh**z ain't it.

joepro0000

yep thats how they became rich. I was working for one who bought 4 penthouse suites at 5millions each, and was looking for paying 80.00 a day for skilled labor.

Custom Drywall Svc.

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Darren@Partners

I think another part of the "end around" equation is that when a builder does this to the drywall contractor, he puts at jeopardy the hanger and taper. By this I mean, when the hanger and taper work for a DW contractor, who works for the builder, those subs have a basic assurance that they'll be paid regularly and fairly. The builder, maybe he wants to pay on the 10th or 25th like he does the DW contractor. And will he call upon the hanger to measure up the job? And expect him to do so at no cost to himself? Will he expect the subs to warranty their work? Will this builder run to the supply house for a stray item like a bull-nose adapter off angle at 4 pm on Fri.? Will he secure temp heat or fans? Will he require WC and GL or just not ask? Will the sub be able to reach the builder if a problem arises on site? Will this builder arrange for a scrapper or will the taper have to pitch it out a window?

It's a whole can of worms for all of us. The DW contractor has gleaned through possibly dozens of sub crews to get the ones he uses today. Does the builder have the right to take advantage of what has been an expensive process for the DW contractor? I do not pretend to have any exclusive rights to the subs I use. But I do take umbrage with the practice. I do not begrudge the sub that wants to go this route, but when this goes awry... I don't aim to involve myself on anyone else's behalf. That goes for the builder and the sub.

muddermankc

If the builder wants to buy materials, let em. Just offer the labor and its one less thing to worry about. Now if were talking about the builder going to each sub,hanger taper sprayer sander, that sucks for us, and i see a few doing that but thats alot of work for them and if they dont have a drywall ringleader theyre screwed, this is the one time that all of our phases inside of our trade works for us, drywall has to many phases for them to operate, plumbers dont,electricians dont,roofers dont, just us so we can just give labor price,run the drywall and still profit.

Darren@Partners

That's where you're wrong, mudderman. One certainly would think your statement correct, but you'll see soon enough that builders, most desparate ones, ARE doing without a DC and getting by. It wouldn't work if they were doing 8-10 homes a month but it just ain't the case right now. It may not work for very long either, but these guys are so desparate to cut costs, they do try it and don't realize YET the problems they're gonna have. But yes, if they want the material bill, I'll let em have it and charge labor only, did two that way last week. But I'm talking about builders hiring our tapers and hangers, Making the hangers measure their own board and scrap, making tapers spray and sand and paying less than we do.

muddermankc

darren, I see what your saying and the material thing would be fine if it stopped at that, but its probably a step closer to hiring their own hanger,taper,etc

Darren@Partners

Right now it's no skin off me, but as my previous posts....something we need to take note of. Most builders doing this are simply in cost cutting mode and have no idea what they're getting into. And I really don't want these builders as clients, most aren't keeping up on their bills elsewhere. But when things do pick up, I'll remember that they took food off my table and rate them for it.

Whitey97