i feel ready to give up

d-rock

if you are willing to come out to cali, i have work for you

patrick



THANK YOU MY FRIEND !!
YOU ROCK !! but it's too far

Drywall Tycoon

You can talk all that hold your price bull all you want Silver. Bring your self righteous self down to Michigan and keep your price.

Economics 101. The price will be what the market bears.
I've bid the builders exchange. Slashed my price on the last ten jobs that I bid by 10 %. Morons are 10 to 20% less than I am.

It's a good thing that a few people her are still willing to pay a negotiated price to keep us busy.

Tell the people that lost 40% of their 401 K in the stock market not to let that happen. Tell the people that are losing their homes here not to let that happen. Tell them they are weak.

Just because you are now a moderator doesn't mean you are an economic genius.

Tycoon

silverstilts

First off moderator or not I have had the same attitude way before that happened so don't try to throw that in my face ( only reason is to keep spammers off and others on track I have a right to my opinion just like everyone else )... second most people that lost their 401 was only money on paper think about it ..... and further yes you may think that the price only depends on what the market bears well who decides what the market bears ???? Keep on lowering your price and the market will continue to drop that is simple economics .. you will cause the market to feel that they will always get what they want at a far less value. My whole point was to those who drastically drop their bids only to buy a job , who cares if you are only haggling over a few pennies , 10 percent well that don't leave a whole lot for profit margin unless you are already making 80 - 100 percent to begin with it is all relative .... back to the whole 401 thing put your money in the bank and collect a measly 2 percent interest at least the money won't disappear or go buy some Cd's or certificates something that is going to guarantee payback instead of gambling with some other persons judgement on how to handle your money.....people who have the least little bit of common sense know full well that investing in the stock market has always been a gamble very few will come out filthy rich that inclination of becoming rich has led to the collapse of the system ....

Drywall Tycoon

Yep Silver, Most all the money is printed on paper. Treasury notes or stock certificates. It all fluctuates. Stocks go up and down. So does the almighty dollar that you think is precious. The more they print the less its worth. Unless you folks up there trade gold for drywall jobs.

Regardless of how much of a legend in our own minds that we can be.
The market will only bear what the willing number of purchasers will pay.
Fewer projects for the same amount of drywall contractors mean a better bargaining position for the consumer.

Example: People cut down on oil consumption. Opec lowers their price.
Consumers cut down buying lobster. Either the lobster fisherman
quit trapping or they lower their price.
Consumers cut down on home building. The board companies
lower their price. ( I like that one )

Yes and even the drywall contractors lower their price too.
Does not mean that you are weak to lower your price.

As for leveling the playing field in your previous post. No you can not have it both ways. You can not level the playing field and not lower your price.
That is what free enterprise is all about. When and if Michigan turns around. We will again charge higher prices. Except we will have twice as many illegal immigrant hangers and finishers driving the price down.


You say the inclination of getting rich has lead to the collapse of the system. Spoken like a Humphrey. It is the wealthy that pay for our services. Unless you do low income housing. Then we and the wealthy are paying our wages.

I don't give two ships about the guys getting filthy rich. Good for them. They will make it regardless of how much we villainize them.

silverstilts

Tycoon my whole point to this is I believe the market can sustain to pay what you and I rightfully deserve ( people want to hold on to what money they have don't mean they don't have any ) , sure work is down and there are those out there pricing well below what they should and I can see your point that will drive down pricing for the rest of us that are legit .. sure oil companies lower their pricing but we all know that they could lower more and still make billions of profit , that is a whole different game and yes it is all tied and inner-linked together snowballing the economy.. I just still know that I have not had to compete like most of you out there , so maybe it just hasn't hit me in the face yet ... work is not up like usual here but still steady . have enough booked in for a few months but could always use more.... I think it should not be to long before things get back on track and we all can make some decent income & profit.... the market out there will only be sluggish for only so long it is just going through a cycle ... hopefully by the time it has ended some of the rift raft out there will move on ...

Darren@Partners

As for a turnaround (in housing), several things must occur first.

First, and most important, is unemployment. Until people have jobs, there will be no recovery. Note that GM is poised to spend over one billion of our money on overseas ops. No outcry from our White House.

Next, our banking/ mortgage system is dysfunctional. Online lenders are again advertising ridiculous offers that got us here in the first place. And banksters like Goldman Sachs borrowing at .025% or less and then using these funds to trade in oil, etc vs. getting that money into the main street economy.

Coupled with the Treasury printing money at will....anybody can see that can only end badly. The entire world knows it, so why doesn't Timmy and Ben know it. Is it because of their ties to Goldman that they do not fear a total collapse, that Goldman will profit either way?

Finally, ( we not really) a FREE ECONOMY is vital to recovery. These socialist experiments being attempted have failed every single time throughout history. So why do our educated leaders believe they can spend us back to strength? The answer is it cannot work, even if Chi-communism is the model, our fundamentals are wildly different.

Just watch the prez suck up to Asia, bow to dictators and figureheads and be lambasted by even the Japanese and Chinese press. He will be ridiculed as a "wanabee commie" be the very people he emulates. Now even the Nobel prize is a booby prize.

So yeah, I'm gonna bitch every time I see that "socialist mop".

But I digress, there are pockets of work out there that pay right. It may with those quality contractors who have had their fill of lowballers who cannot perform. Or prevailing wage jobs with entities that refuse to allow wage piracy. And these lowballers will self-exterminate but they will take some of us with them.

__________________
www.partnersconstruction-drywall.com

d-rock

I agree.. Socialism will not work. Maybe the gang in Washington should look at history, particularly the Reagan era, and learn how to boost an economy, while still kicking the enemy's rear ends..

Darren@Partners

Which could accomplished by doing two simple things... Cut taxes and raisE the prime rate to stop insane deficit spending by consumers and prevent inflation if it not already too late. Rates on (future) credit card purchses should be 50% or something really high to prevent usage altogether. This would stop folks from living beyond their means.

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www.partnersconstruction-drywall.com

silverstilts

I think Custom's post described it at best over on the business marketing section under "stupid prices" so much truth and right down to the nitty gritty details...

Drywall Tycoon

Two years ago: One drywall project. Ten bidders.

This year: One drywall project. Twenty bidders.

Guess what : Stupid prices.

Whadaya do: Bid lower. Not to lose money. Work a little harder. An hour more a day.

Don't say that is weak or stupid.

Like silver said in his post. It hasn't hit him in the face yet. Michigan is dependant on the auto industry. Car sales have been down. Everything else follows here.

Don't tell the young drywall contractor to hold his price and starve to death.
That is arrogant and ignorant. Tell him to work harder to get jobs. Work harder to get them done. Compete. That is what the free market is all about.

Tycoon

Darren@Partners

It's a two edged sword, lowering prices. Need the work, lower it a bit, make less, the men get to work, etc. But it is also like many bad habits, once you do it once, it gets easier to do a second and third time. That is where the problem lies. Soon everybody is doing it, like a reverse wage/ price spiral. And then what?

Biden was on the Daily Show last night, talking about small biz needing help. Then Obama spewing warnings of a double- dip. Marks the first time either one has said anything that resembles an intelligent observation about the economy. Too bad it has taken them this long to recognize their game plan is misdirected.

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www.partnersconstruction-drywall.com

Drywall Tycoon

It's to late here. The price war has been on for a year.
Some of us that have been at it a long time here are able to struggle through
I have a little rainy day savings to get through this.

The guys that are just starting may not. When I started in 1980 we were hanging apartments for .06. Between footage and side jobs, I thought I was getting filthy rich.

Right now, here. You cannot get a bid job for 20% less than two years ago.
I bid a small grocery store. Studs,Insulation, drywall and EIFS. I was second at
$ 52,000.00. Low bid was $ 44,000.00. The pack was mid 50 to 60 k.

I bid the drywall at .75. EIFS at $ 6.00. Disgustingly cheap. Just for a place to work in Jan. - Feb. All the bid work is going like that here. I don't know how they are doing it.

The phone is still ringing for negotiated work. Last summer was brutal here.

The only help small business needs is tax relief. As long as the government is creating government jobs and they are getting their cushy benefits and pensions.
Why would they help us ?

Tycoon

Darren@Partners

A tax cut by itself won't do it now. Our price war has been in process over two years. I won't even repeat the footage prices from here, but they a little higher than rockdaddy's but not much. But am starting to hear from GCs that had their fill of lowballers.

Am urging all to call, write, fax, email your reps and senators and explain our plight. Sounds cliche, but the squeaky wheel gets greased.

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www.partnersconstruction-drywall.com

TimberTom

Agreed. This needs to be done in volume, though. Not enough people speak up, and things rarely change. <squeak squeak>

d-rock

just picked up another small t&m thing...so at least i could keep one of my guys busy for a short time, and collect a few bucks. in the meantime been doing the t&m thing myself at another site. at least the bills are paid. I've very recently put in a bid for a stud/insulation/rock job, and the GC told me i have a good shot, and it's ready to start soon. if i get it, it should carry me through winter. But, i have to admit...I cut my pricing ALOT. there is no wiggle room, and i'll be there every day with tools strapped on pushing like a bull. If something else pops up while that's happening, i don't know how i'll split myself up. but with those numbers i can't afford to trust or pay anyone else to run my job. KEEPING MY FINGERS CROSSED FOR THIS JOB...
Glad to see there are many like-minded people on this site, i feel right at home.

rabb

SlimPickins

Hmmm, seems like that's not really the case now, is it? Board prices here have increased by 20% every quarter for the last four quarters...

I think what really happens is that companies see profits going down due to lack of spending so they raise their prices to level profits. They know we still need their product, so we're in a bind and have to pay the increased price.

There were a couple of months there when I was lowering my price to stay busy, and I thought I needed to do it. I've since realized.....f*&$ that. My skills haven't changed...it's not as if a recession hits and my skills have dropped by 30%, so why should my price?

its.scout

It's quite different between Canada, or where I live anyhow, and the US. It seems the economic structure of your country is doomed to fail because the government isn't taking necessary steps to help you guys out. In Canada when that recession hit, the government handed out tax credits and other building incentives to any one that was renovating or purchasing improvements for their home, which was great. Even though times were tough there was great incentive to pay us to work. So there hasn't been much of a problem finding work, what there has been a problem with is prices. It used to be that we could get about 50% higher per foot rates before the recession and then it dropped about 20% which was fine if you were a really hard worker. Then a boarding foreman for one of the largest companies on the island took the finishing foreman and started their own company and underbid EVERYONE; slashing prices and stealing a portion of the other companies contacts. Even though everything in general is back on the up and the work is flowing, this guy has just gouged us out of good pricing as he just underbids everyone. What really sucks is that he uses the bottom of the barrel, quantity driven drywallers, and has the numbers to push out the work. This leaves the rest of us; the ones who take pride in our work, and of course the mediocre. I'm only 23, Im still learning every day and I love what I do. It's just brutal to think what he's doing to the industry, not only with the wages, but with the guys he's hiring, and the way he is training people. It's no wonder we get a bad rap with these kind of people dictating the way the market shapes up and leaving a lot of you great drywallers searching to find a way to scrape by and keep your business afloat.

Drywall Tycoon

Board prices here took one 20% increase this year. They are calling for another at the first of the year. Still very low historically. Remember 1996-97-98. Doesn't matter your skill level. Only if you have several negotiated customers you will probably work for less. Until this thing gets going.

Drywall Tycoon

I don't think our country is doomed but it seems they continue to devalue the dollar. 11-4-10. Printing more money. It is a global currency so it makes sense that we are spreading some of that cheer to our neighbors.

About 1 in 10 here have a bridge card. Free food from the government. I think it is higher in Michigan. Every time I go to the grocery store there is someone in line with a full cart and a bridge card.

There is always a new kid on the block. In our case about 20 million undocumented workers from a third world country that enjoy making hamburger flipping wages to do a skilled job.