i feel ready to give up - Drywall Talk - Professional Drywall and Finishing Contractors Forum

d-rock · 11-03-2009, 06:43 PM

I have no work. next week I'll be calling my old bosses and asking them if they need a carpenter. have to get by the next few months until some more work comes along. been bidding jobs like crazy, maybe my bids were to high, but i know for a fact people are working for pennies. some people tell me to just pay my guys dirt, and eek by. for all that i would've kept my previous job. what's the point of starting a business. the worst part of it is i feel DUMB. doubting myself at every turn now, trying to drop prices but good guys won't work for $12 an hour, they will laugh at me. maybe i just can't estimate properly, but i can't be that far off. a few months ago things were good, i was expanding, growing, hustling. today i am faced with no work, and just enough money left to tie the knots. Been doing this a long time, and i just can't see why it's not floating. a year ago, when i started the business, i didn't think it would be this bad. just venting.....thanks for listening.

super rocker · 11-03-2009, 09:52 PM

We are all feeling exactly like you, but you seem to be bidding work ,so there is hope. If you are being outbid ,ask the GC if you were close. If you are, then drop your price about 10% and see what happens. If you bid enough jobs eventually you WILL get one and use that as an example for your next bid. Your timing was bad, but no one saw this mess coming, so don't feel stupid or blame your self. Believe it or not, there are people in much worse shape than you so try to keep your life in perspective. This might sound trite, but you need to focus on what you have , not what you don't have. Whatever you do, never sell out or compromise your integrity like some people on this site. Hang in there, Buddy.

alltex · 11-03-2009, 10:16 PM

good luck .i,m bidding my 2nd house in 3 months .all little stuff besides that .lucky its just me and Jose.He hangs ,i tape and tex.Weve been like that for about 6 years .He just wants to work and i do the busness part.Keep it small has always worked for me ! Don,t give up.

alltex · 11-03-2009, 10:25 PM

Yes he is Legal.(i think).

Stormy_Ny · 11-03-2009, 11:20 PM

D-Rock ..... You picked the toughest time in history to start a business. Problem with bidding is the work is 6 months to a year out.

My advise .... Make the calls. A little humble pie is tough to eat, but at least you will be working. It is not going to get better anytime soon, matter of fact it is going to get much worse before it gets better if ever.

I am whoring myself out at the moment ... Upstate is no better, just less of us.

rockdaddy · 11-07-2009, 10:37 AM

HANg in there brother! Nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems. Persistence pays off in the end. Do what you have to do until you can do what you want to do. Look for things to start turning around in MARch or APRIL.
Don't give up!! Fortune favors the bold.

rockdaddy · 11-07-2009, 10:41 AM

Dont know where in NY you are but SYRAcuse-ROCHEster-Buffalo market is moving. If you are closer to NYC maybe jump the bridege to Jersey. LAKEWood and the surrounding communities are moving pretty well for us right now.

Stormy_Ny · 11-07-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdaddy

Dont know where in NY you are but SYRAcuse-ROCHEster-Buffalo market is moving. If you are closer to NYC maybe jump the bridege to Jersey. LAKEWood and the surrounding communities are moving pretty well for us right now.

Rock Daddy ...I am in the Syracuse Rochester ... Buffalo market ..... I Either Sub or work with the biggest and the best ......

It ain't moving ...... Unless you know something I don't...... Give it up man.

d-rock · 11-07-2009, 03:44 PM

thanks fellas. I'm whoring myself out at the moment for a gc. had to do it. it's a 350 board job he's doing w/ his own guys (they're not bad), he's just paying me as a sub so i figure it'll be enough to pay the bills and keep the worker's comp/liability going. He does want me to bid the taping for him, so i'm trying to figure out a nice tight number. all the boards are 8's with tops (commercial job)..Don't know why he got 8's, would've been better with 10's or 12's stood up. I guess that's what happens when you don't hire professionals.

**Darren@Partners** · 11-07-2009, 04:39 PM

Sometimes (depending on your rapport with the gc) I'll give them the number, then depending on the response, ask "Just what sort of number are you looking for?" He will either have another bid/s or a budget number. Be sure to ask the right questions to find out if the service you're offering is the same as the other bid. Try to not come off as desparate, stay professional. If you can get him to talk about his last drywaller, you may find out his hot buttons. Maybe the last guy's price was low but was lacking in other areas: quality, reliability, on time, etc.

As to the 8's.....fish around. Ask him what his reasoning was. "say, did the supply house cut you a deal on 8's?" or "on your next job, can I measure it up for you and see if my supplier can get 10's or 12's cheaper and stocked?". Maybe he is buying from HD or a lumberyard. If you can save him money/effort he will recognize the value. Try to eventually get a penny or so to measure it up.

I maybe off base, but if you can get him to talk with you, maybe you can find out what makes him tick and capitalize.

**silverstilts** · 11-07-2009, 08:31 PM

D-rock you say your business is fairly new , that is the way it goes when things are normal that is things can even be slow ( until you build up some good loyal contractors ) but put a slow economy behind that it and it makes it a hundred times harder to find work.... That is all part of the game starting out , hanging in there and making things work out one way or another.... If I had to and things were so slow that I didn't have enough work for my crew yet more than one should take on by himself well lets just say I have been there .... long hours and persistence.... persistence especially with GC even if you don't get work that instance still stay in contact and be a friend with the head honchos , you don't have to always be work orientated with them and sooner or later things will be handed out to you because they will feel that they know you and can trust you it is a start .... it seems like a long road sometimes but there is always and end. Are some of the
GC that you have worked for just not have the work or is some other drywall contractor taken away your business ??? If another has take your work away why is that ? the money or the service or quality or perhaps work ethics something to think about.

**silverstilts** · 11-07-2009, 08:45 PM

Give up you say I just want to retire and horse around ........

Stormy_Ny · 11-07-2009, 09:17 PM

After 35 years you should ! If I have to do this another 10 years ...... Well

alltex · 11-08-2009, 07:58 PM

I,m sick and tired and ready to retire

rocker7969 · 11-08-2009, 09:19 PM

Yeah, around here too, we've been losing jobs too. One we are hanging now, we're doing a few cents cheaper just to be able to work. We have a couple contractors that always use us because they want a quality job, and know we will do whatever it takes to give them that. The other contractors, or I should say realtors, just want it done, and the don't care what it looks like.
We had one house we were supposed to hang, but another "company" (don't think they are a real company), thought it was their house, so they hung it. We got screwed out of the hanging job, but still did the taping. Wish we would have lost that too, it took the tapers three days longer, and 4 more boxes of mud than the same house usually takes, when we hang it. And still, it didn't look as good as it should have.

Drywall Tycoon · 11-14-2009, 08:35 AM

We did a bunch of nickle dime jobs last summer. Garages, small remodels and some small EIFS jobs.

Since September we can't get to all of the work. It's myself and two good guys.
I drag in a couple more if it is real busy.

Bid lower, work harder, stay an hour longer a day. Extreme times require extreme measures. Tough times don't last. Tough people do.

It's a recession when your neighbor is out of work. It's a depression when you are out of work.

**silverstilts** · 11-15-2009, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drywall Tycoon

We did a bunch of nickle dime jobs last summer. Garages, small remodels and some small EIFS jobs.

Since September we can't get to all of the work. It's myself and two good guys.
I drag in a couple more if it is real busy.

Bid lower, work harder, stay an hour longer a day. Extreme times require extreme measures. Tough times don't last. Tough people do.

It's a recession when your neighbor is out of work. It's a depression when you are out of work.

You can only bid so low then what are you going to do , pay to go to work ? Definition of depression is when the ones in the trade bid so low it drives down everyone Else's . Where will it end ? If you find yourself buying your jobs get out of the business and let those who know how to make a buck get on with our business... It's a highly skilled trade so don't work for pennies on the dollar .. The cost of running a business does not get any cheaper ( materials insurance gas and all the constants like the phone and any legal expenses so why are some of you giving in and lowering your labor prices ? It's not just the economy that is driving pricing down , it is the weak minded ones that will give in and work for nothing !!! It don't depend on the economy on money issues when it comes down to other business matters , overall you don't see people slashing their income just to satisfy some other greedy person move on and stand firm , if you have to walk from a job so be it , because if you keep sliding backwards sooner or later you wont have any job to walk away from you will be out of business... I refuse to work for anyone just to go broke I will not spend MY MONEY to provide someone with a high standard of living , I have to much respect for myself and all that I have worked for . There must be a way for everyone to get on board and even out the playing field ... you said tough time require extreme measures , and tough people survive tough times well toughen up & charge your worth other wise you are not tough but rather weak.

patricktdh · 11-15-2009, 11:54 AM

where are you at? i need guys for multiple jobs right now.

Patrick

patricktdh · 11-15-2009, 11:55 AM

if you are willing to come out to cali, i have work for you

patrick

d-rock · 11-15-2009, 10:17 PM

you guys are great,
every response is uplifting, inspirational and instructive. i appreciate it. I've recently picked up some t&m work, but since the GC already got the material, it's just T. Never the less, i'm paying the bills. in the mean time, i'm bidding jobs like crazy. I've brought down my profit margin to between 10-15%, but i think my biggest problem is not knowing what going rates are . seems everyone charges slightly different numbers. I've been figuring everything t&m and adding profit/overhead. But i've realized no one hangs as many boards as i do, or frames as quickly as i can. Also, it's never as easy as just going in and throwing boards up. Gotta always button up framing, tie up loose ends etc. I simply tell my men " if you don't get these 85- 6' boards up today, you won't have a job tomorrow. ( we use 6' boards on jobs with tiny freight elevators here in NYC). I know guys are doing rock (finished & supplied) for $1 a SF, and that sounds reasonable for commercial work, but w/ all the extra bull involved i don't see how to turn a profit. What am i not understanding gentlemen ? am i doing something wrong ?

11-03-2009, 06:43 PM	#1
d-rock Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NYC Posts: 248	i feel ready to give up I have no work. next week I'll be calling my old bosses and asking them if they need a carpenter. have to get by the next few months until some more work comes along. been bidding jobs like crazy, maybe my bids were to high, but i know for a fact people are working for pennies. some people tell me to just pay my guys dirt, and eek by. for all that i would've kept my previous job. what's the point of starting a business. the worst part of it is i feel DUMB. doubting myself at every turn now, trying to drop prices but good guys won't work for $12 an hour, they will laugh at me. maybe i just can't estimate properly, but i can't be that far off. a few months ago things were good, i was expanding, growing, hustling. today i am faced with no work, and just enough money left to tie the knots. Been doing this a long time, and i just can't see why it's not floating. a year ago, when i started the business, i didn't think it would be this bad. just venting.....thanks for listening.

11-03-2009, 09:52 PM	#2
super rocker Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: illinois Posts: 20	Hang in there, Bunky We are all feeling exactly like you, but you seem to be bidding work ,so there is hope. If you are being outbid ,ask the GC if you were close. If you are, then drop your price about 10% and see what happens. If you bid enough jobs eventually you WILL get one and use that as an example for your next bid. Your timing was bad, but no one saw this mess coming, so don't feel stupid or blame your self. Believe it or not, there are people in much worse shape than you so try to keep your life in perspective. This might sound trite, but you need to focus on what you have , not what you don't have. Whatever you do, never sell out or compromise your integrity like some people on this site. Hang in there, Buddy.

11-07-2009, 04:39 PM	#10
Darren@Partners Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: KCMO area Posts: 758	Sometimes (depending on your rapport with the gc) I'll give them the number, then depending on the response, ask "Just what sort of number are you looking for?" He will either have another bid/s or a budget number. Be sure to ask the right questions to find out if the service you're offering is the same as the other bid. Try to not come off as desparate, stay professional. If you can get him to talk about his last drywaller, you may find out his hot buttons. Maybe the last guy's price was low but was lacking in other areas: quality, reliability, on time, etc. As to the 8's.....fish around. Ask him what his reasoning was. "say, did the supply house cut you a deal on 8's?" or "on your next job, can I measure it up for you and see if my supplier can get 10's or 12's cheaper and stocked?". Maybe he is buying from HD or a lumberyard. If you can save him money/effort he will recognize the value. Try to eventually get a penny or so to measure it up. I maybe off base, but if you can get him to talk with you, maybe you can find out what makes him tick and capitalize. __________________ www.partnersconstruction-drywall.com

11-08-2009, 09:19 PM	#15
rocker7969 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Central IL Posts: 6	Working for cheaper... Yeah, around here too, we've been losing jobs too. One we are hanging now, we're doing a few cents cheaper just to be able to work. We have a couple contractors that always use us because they want a quality job, and know we will do whatever it takes to give them that. The other contractors, or I should say realtors, just want it done, and the don't care what it looks like. We had one house we were supposed to hang, but another "company" (don't think they are a real company), thought it was their house, so they hung it. We got screwed out of the hanging job, but still did the taping. Wish we would have lost that too, it took the tapers three days longer, and 4 more boxes of mud than the same house usually takes, when we hang it. And still, it didn't look as good as it should have.

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11-03-2009, 10:16 PM	#3
alltex Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: washington state Posts: 118	good luck .i,m bidding my 2nd house in 3 months .all little stuff besides that .lucky its just me and Jose.He hangs ,i tape and tex.Weve been like that for about 6 years .He just wants to work and i do the busness part.Keep it small has always worked for me ! Don,t give up.

11-03-2009, 10:25 PM	#4
alltex Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: washington state Posts: 118	Yes he is Legal.(i think).

11-03-2009, 11:20 PM	#5
Stormy_Ny Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: NY Posts: 131	D-Rock ..... You picked the toughest time in history to start a business. Problem with bidding is the work is 6 months to a year out. My advise .... Make the calls. A little humble pie is tough to eat, but at least you will be working. It is not going to get better anytime soon, matter of fact it is going to get much worse before it gets better if ever. I am whoring myself out at the moment ... Upstate is no better, just less of us.

11-07-2009, 10:37 AM	#6
rockdaddy Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: pennsylvania Posts: 79	HANg in there brother! Nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems. Persistence pays off in the end. Do what you have to do until you can do what you want to do. Look for things to start turning around in MARch or APRIL. Don't give up!! Fortune favors the bold.

11-07-2009, 10:41 AM	#7
rockdaddy Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: pennsylvania Posts: 79	Dont know where in NY you are but SYRAcuse-ROCHEster-Buffalo market is moving. If you are closer to NYC maybe jump the bridege to Jersey. LAKEWood and the surrounding communities are moving pretty well for us right now.

11-07-2009, 03:44 PM	#9
d-rock Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NYC Posts: 248	thanks fellas. I'm whoring myself out at the moment for a gc. had to do it. it's a 350 board job he's doing w/ his own guys (they're not bad), he's just paying me as a sub so i figure it'll be enough to pay the bills and keep the worker's comp/liability going. He does want me to bid the taping for him, so i'm trying to figure out a nice tight number. all the boards are 8's with tops (commercial job)..Don't know why he got 8's, would've been better with 10's or 12's stood up. I guess that's what happens when you don't hire professionals.

11-07-2009, 08:31 PM	#11
silverstilts Super Moderator Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Northern MN Posts: 576	D-rock you say your business is fairly new , that is the way it goes when things are normal that is things can even be slow ( until you build up some good loyal contractors ) but put a slow economy behind that it and it makes it a hundred times harder to find work.... That is all part of the game starting out , hanging in there and making things work out one way or another.... If I had to and things were so slow that I didn't have enough work for my crew yet more than one should take on by himself well lets just say I have been there .... long hours and persistence.... persistence especially with GC even if you don't get work that instance still stay in contact and be a friend with the head honchos , you don't have to always be work orientated with them and sooner or later things will be handed out to you because they will feel that they know you and can trust you it is a start .... it seems like a long road sometimes but there is always and end. Are some of the GC that you have worked for just not have the work or is some other drywall contractor taken away your business ??? If another has take your work away why is that ? the money or the service or quality or perhaps work ethics something to think about.

11-07-2009, 08:45 PM	#12
silverstilts Super Moderator Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Northern MN Posts: 576	Give up you say I just want to retire and horse around ........

11-07-2009, 09:17 PM	#13
Stormy_Ny Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: NY Posts: 131	After 35 years you should ! If I have to do this another 10 years ...... Well

11-08-2009, 07:58 PM	#14
alltex Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: washington state Posts: 118	I,m sick and tired and ready to retire

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11-14-2009, 08:35 AM	#16
Drywall Tycoon Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: South West Michigan Posts: 145	We did a bunch of nickle dime jobs last summer. Garages, small remodels and some small EIFS jobs. Since September we can't get to all of the work. It's myself and two good guys. I drag in a couple more if it is real busy. Bid lower, work harder, stay an hour longer a day. Extreme times require extreme measures. Tough times don't last. Tough people do. It's a recession when your neighbor is out of work. It's a depression when you are out of work.

11-15-2009, 11:54 AM	#18
patricktdh Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: palm springs Posts: 3	where are you at? i need guys for multiple jobs right now. Patrick

11-15-2009, 11:55 AM	#19
patricktdh Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: palm springs Posts: 3	if you are willing to come out to cali, i have work for you patrick

11-15-2009, 10:17 PM	#20
d-rock Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NYC Posts: 248	you guys are great, every response is uplifting, inspirational and instructive. i appreciate it. I've recently picked up some t&m work, but since the GC already got the material, it's just T. Never the less, i'm paying the bills. in the mean time, i'm bidding jobs like crazy. I've brought down my profit margin to between 10-15%, but i think my biggest problem is not knowing what going rates are . seems everyone charges slightly different numbers. I've been figuring everything t&m and adding profit/overhead. But i've realized no one hangs as many boards as i do, or frames as quickly as i can. Also, it's never as easy as just going in and throwing boards up. Gotta always button up framing, tie up loose ends etc. I simply tell my men " if you don't get these 85- 6' boards up today, you won't have a job tomorrow. ( we use 6' boards on jobs with tiny freight elevators here in NYC). I know guys are doing rock (finished & supplied) for $1 a SF, and that sounds reasonable for commercial work, but w/ all the extra bull involved i don't see how to turn a profit. What am i not understanding gentlemen ? am i doing something wrong ?